The Vancouver Sun posted some pictures from that police shooting in East Vancovuer May 24th a witness took on their cell phone. This story has a happy ending. She put one in his leg not in his chest. You don't always have to shoot to kill. Just like with the suicidal man in Safeway.
Hey lady, here I come.
Ouch. You shot me. Why the f*ck did you do that? That's police brutality.
You charged me when I had my gun drawn dumb ass.
I guess it could be worse. At least you put one in my leg and not my chest.
I couldn't see the knife but the fact that he charged her with her gun drawn means shooting him in the leg is well within reason because even if he was unarmed he could have grabbed the gun.
I think I can see the knife now. Since he was bleeding from the stomach in what appears to be a self inflicted wound he clearly appears to be on something. Shooting him in the leg showed professional self control and restraint. Well done. Very different from the Hudson Brooks case.
good on the Lady cop,lot of guts and self control.
ReplyDeleteIndeed. A lot of the men would have panicked and put one in his chest simply because they were afraid.
DeleteWhile I agree that the overall outcome this time was preferable to another successful "suicide by cop", leg shots with a pistol don't always have this effect. They both got lucky. She could very easily have found herself at contact distance where a blade is at very little disadvantage. A pistol is dangerous only to what is directly in line with the bore, a knife can come at you and wound or kill from a myriad of angles. In addition, legs/arms/head move and shift position much more than does the torso which is a larger target and moves less. Extremities are harder to hit, especially under stress and are a less reliable target. A leg hit may not strike bone or nerve, an "edge hit" on the leg is only a flesh wound that may not even be felt initially, especially by the mentally disturbed or someone doped up. (or both)
ReplyDeleteSad to say that in the end she has not really done anyone but the perp a favor, from now on every time a cop in Vancouver needs to use deadly force they will be hit with a lawsuit by the vic's survivors claiming "they could have just shot him in the leg".
Sometimes they should shoot them in the leg. Like I said she was calm and precise. A chest shot is a lot easier. Now her macho male coworkers are going to mock her when in reality she is better than they are. She had the gun raised but pointed slightly down ready to go for the leg or the chest if need be. She was totally professional in complete control. With a knife attack they should use a steel batton not shoot them in the chest.
DeleteIn the old days you might have a point. Having been a certified ASP instructor once upon a time I can tell you the guys on the street these days are not good enough to go up against someone with a knife who may actually know what they're doing with it. And it's only partially their fault, the training is not such as to inspire confidence to do this, they are not forced to maintain competency sufficient to do so even if they were, and on top of it, the ASP is not the tool to attempt it with. An solid aluminum straight baton, 24"-26", now that is a tool you can have some confidence in.
DeleteAn ASP is often ineffective against the portions of the anatomy students are taught to strike, and if you have a lack of effect against someone with a knife, you WILL be cut or stabbed. Slashes are seldom fatal, but stabs frequently are.
Students who have been taught only "compliance" techniques with a baton and told to never ever strike the face/head/neck (ASP doctrine) will be at a disadvantage when dealing with a knife wielding attacker. Guys who have practiced those strikes will have a chance against a perp with a blade. If they haven't, they won't. If the guy has actual training with a blade he will most often also have other martial arts training and have a very good idea how to deal with a baton strike while getting his blade into his opponent.
Hitting someone with a baton doesn't always provide the effect you expect, and I say that having been on both ends. You can't afford to deal with a blade with a baton given that reality.
Back to leg shots. ne of the reasons we got away from that was peripheral hits that only penetrated 1-2" of flesh (ie. hit the leg but not centered/did not strike bone) before striking the pavement behind the perp, due to the downward angle ricocheting off the pavement, and hitting a mother of 3 in the face two blocks away.
Rule #4- "Know your target and what's beyond it."
THAT among previously stated concerns is why we don't do leg shots. While the outcome here was a good one, would we feel the same if the bullet had over penetrated and gone on to hit someone down the street? Nope, and it would have been a perfect illustration of WHY we don't do that.
Don't be surprised if the officer receives a demerit for needlessly endangering the public by taking that leg shot. Just beacause it worked out well this time doesn't mean it will the next, there is GOOD REASON why one aims center of mass.
There's a huge difference between a trained knife fighter and a crackhead or someone with a mental illness flailing with a knife. Two different worlds. We used to take down crackheads armed with kitchen knives in New York on a regular basis. We were unarmed. A batton is way safer because it provides a safe distance you can hit the knife hand and hit the knee. Works quite effectively for the Bobbies in England.
DeleteThe problem with discharging a firearm in public is as you say knowing what's behind your target in case you miss or in case the bullet goes through the target.
In this case the trajectory is clear in the pictures. The gun is raised pointed slightly down, no dangerous follow through. She should get a medal.
It doesn't diminish other situations. It just provides an alternative. There was another guy in East Van with a knife. Police shot him with a bean bag gun forcing him to drop the knife. He then picks up the knife and stabs someone else. That's when they shot him dead. No argument there.
It's hard to know who you're dealing with. Better safe than sorry. If it's just you, play it safe. If you have multiple officers and they have confidence in their abilities/availability of shotgun with bean bag rounds/Taser/OC, then rock on. But if you're the first guy there and backup is 2 minutes away.......if you get the sense that the situation is containable for that long, cool, go for it. If the perp is cornered/focused on you but not advancing, great. But if they are attempting to get by you and be further at large with a butcher knife, you don't know if he's going to stab a half dozen people before you all catch up with him. Are they pretty stationary, wall/side of a brick building behind them and can you actually shoot? (Many cops are only good for center mass) Cool, go for that leg shot. It's on you as to how it works out if you deviate from your training though.
ReplyDeleteIn the example you quote, note that the perp managed, after officers deployed less lethal measures, to shrug that off and stab someone else. You've just illustrated my point. What if that stab had been fatal, as it easily could have been?
Personally I'm good with what is called the pelvic girdle shot. Still center of mass/relatively stable target area, and better surviveability for the perp than upper torso. But the officer has to be that good too. Most are not.
At the end of the day it comes down to the officer who has to make the decision, take the risks, and live (or not)with the consequences. With a modern trauma center minutes away, not all people shot once/twice in the torso will die of their wounds. When they decide (or God tells them to) go all whackadoo in public with a knife, they've made the choice that they like their chances with that.
All these circumstances are different, multiple factors that need to be taken into account, and often in very compressed time parameters. You can't fault the guy who goes with his/her training and places the safest bet.
Yeah whatever. Like the House of Pain once said it's pretty hard to run when you got a broken leg. I'm not much on the bean bag guns. I prefer a steel baton or a .357. You are right in that at the end of the day it's the officer on the job that takes the risk and has to make the final decision. Every situation is indeed different.
DeleteI hate to say it but trailrunner does have a point but I still think she did the right thing. Look at what that cop did to that 19 year old sammy yatim in toronto that video is insane if you haven't seen it check it out...
ReplyDeleteI just checked out that video. That's exactly what I mean. The kid obviously had mental problems. The bus had been cleared. A bunch of fat men shot him nine times. That was disgusting. Trailrunner is right in the sense that every situation is different. Lethal force is obviously necessary sometimes. However in that situation the cop in Toronto was wrong but this cop in Vancuver was right. It's as simple as that.
DeleteChecked out the vid.
ReplyDeleteNot sure who the cop is that was on trial, the guy who fired the first three shots? Or one of the guys who fired that last 6....wow. Wait, that should be WOW. I'm guessing it would be the last guy, who felt he had to "get some" as well....news articles reference a defense about not being able to be charged with murdering someone "who was already dead". What a novel defense.
The first 3 rounds are a "good shoot" for the strict definition of policy/training etc.. Perp had a knife, refused multiple commands to drop it. HOWEVER....
We have been talking about exigent circumstance. Here's my take on this one.
The guy was on the bus and has shown no inclination to leave it. At least one officer has a Taser, he can be seen using it on Sammy's deceased/soon to be corpse. (Someone really needs to talk to that guy about the use of force continuum, taser first, THEN gun) So, nothing between fat boy with the taser and Sammy but fear and atmosphere, and not too much air. I'd be nervous on the street too if I had 80lbs of blubber to lug around. That said, there are 2 officers to maintain the cover and ol' Sammy doesn't appear to be going anywhere, so....Taser guy drops back, circles around, and comes up to the doorway from Sammy's right, then pops him with the Taser. If it doesn't work, the two cover guys take the shot.
Not only did they not do that, after the first three shots put him down, THEY THEN SHOOT HIM 6 MORE TIMES AFTER HE HAS CEASED TO BE A THREAT.
THAT is why Constable Dumbass got charged. And that is why he is GUILTY. A citizen shoots someone in lawful self defense, they are good to go right up until the perp ceases to be a threat. When he goes down, that's it. After that it is murder, and the charge against this cop is totally justified.
Yes the first three were justified. Since the bus was empty and it was a stand off, I wouldn't have done it but it was justified. As you say, taser first then gun. The following six shots after he was on the ground motionless were as you say, insane.
DeleteThen canuck the crow stole the knife from the crime scene 😂
ReplyDeleteYou're right. I didn't realize that was from this incident:
Deletehttp://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/crow-knife-crime-scene-1.3600299
Here's an excellent example (good clear video) of a circumstance where the cop followed his training and STILL almost got stabbed. Every circumstance is different but you can't know which one you're in the middle of while you're in the middle of it, there's no time. Now you know where the 21 foot rule came from, and why....
ReplyDeletehttp://www.officer.com/news/12217498/video-shows-fatal-massachusetts-police-shooting