Global is reporting that “According to the police, officers were responding to a report of a male causing a disturbance at a public information session being held by BC Hydro in the 500 block of Highway 2 in Dawson Creek. The male had reportedly been damaging property and disrupting the event.” The suspect was wearing a mask and they shot him dead. Holy gestapo batman this is why we oppose Bill C-51. That is insane. This is why we oppose gun control.
I personally support the Site C dam. I think hydro electric dams are way better than nuclear reactors. Vancouver has a long history of green energy from dams- Clevland dam at the foot of Grouse mountain, Alouette lake, Stave lake. However, I realize many locals in the Peace River valley oppose the plan and they have every right to express their concerns. I also recognize that the concern about the plan being used to gather water for fracking is a very valid concern as well.
Update: Some people are claiming that the person the police shot dead was a member of Anonymous. The Free Thought is claiming the suspect was wearing a Guy Faux mask. The thing is we can see him sitting on the ground. We can't see any threatening moves being made with a knife if he even really had one. They claim Anonymous has threatened to fight back. Its hard to tell if that's a fake provocateur plant or not but the statement they made said they would fight back not shoot cops. Fighting back could mean many things including taking legal action against the police officers involved. Randomly shooing cops is not the answer. It appears that their first course of action is to identify the police officer that did the shooting and expose his information on the Internet. Stay tuned. This is not over yet.
Revolution News is reporting that "The IIO says police arrived on scene and encountered a man wearing a mask outside the restaurant, and believed him to be connected to the complaint. At some point, a confrontation occurred and police shot the masked man. He was taken to the hospital where he later died of his wounds, according to the IIO." No mention of a knife just a "confrontation." But the video shows he was sitting down on the ground wearing a mask. There was no confrontation with the police other then them shooting him.
This whole mask thing is a bit of a controversy in itself. Stephen Harper has made it illegal to wear a mask at a political demonstration. This illegal law has yet to be tried in the courts. I can understand the intent of the law. We don't want people wearing masks at protests when they are involved in criminal activity like vandalizing or looting whether they be activist, criminal or provocateur.
Yet making it illegal to wear a mask or costume in a peaceful protest is way over board. You can charge someone with wearing a mask while committing a criminal offense like vandalizing or looting but you can't charge someone for wearing one at a peaceful protest. Well you can but the court will throw it out. This matter needs to be tried in the courts. You certainly are not legally authorized to shoot someone dead for wearing a mask while sitting on the ground waiting to be arrested. That is murder. Anonymous has every right to lobby for a fair trial.
Operation Anon Down is confirming that the protester who was shot dead by the RCMP was a member of Anonymous and a member of First Nation Treaty 8. This murder was a colossal mistake. It is at this point where I will hereby make a passionate appeal for calm. We all need to fight this. Together. Lawfully. Sue their asses off. We are Canadian. We will fight for our freedom but we will not murder innocent people to obtain that freedom. The officer involved needs to be charged and tried. Do not start shooting random cops. That will solve nothing and will diminish all of us. Fight we must but we also must be wise about how we engage this fight. Peace.
I see nothing in the report that the suspect had a weapon.....and I'm thinking that if he'd had one it would be mentioned.....but he was masked, so maybe that made him really scary and overrode all that nice Depot training on deadly force, when it's justified, and when it's not.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately the older standards for deadly force seem to be eroded in practice by "fear", as in "I was afraid for my safety". All a cop has to do these days is say those magic words and it's a "good shoot". The problem is they are hiring "fear biters" who've never been in a fight in their lives until their training at Depot, and they are being condition all through their training to articulate that they were afraid.
Here's a heads up boys and girls, if you are made afraid that easily, the job is not for you. You are psychologically unsuited to employment as a LEO. And the longer you keep up the charade in your mind that you are, the greater the chance that someone is going to get hurt who doesn't need to be.
I can't wait to hear more about this incident. Police officer shooting someone without a weapon = FAIL.
Not having gun control will not solve this problem. The cops usually are better shots and an all out gunfight doesn't solve any problems. Just a lot of dead people. Of course sometimes if the body count gets high enough, some one pays attention, but I've been following all the murders in the U.S.A. of people of colour by their police and nothing has changed.
ReplyDeletePolice in B.C. do appear to be picking up some bad habits from their co oherts in the U.S.A. and the killing of the taxpayers might need to stop. It does nothing for the tax base. It puts the RCMP in a very bad light, sort of like American cops.
Cops need better training on how to deal with people who are violent or using knives. I do remember when cops carried batons and actually knew how to use them. I think its just easier for police officers to stand back, shout and then shoot.
it maybe that police officers today are simply afraid of being in these situations and know of no other way to deal with violent or semi violent people. I suspect most police officers to day have never been even in a real fist fight with another human.
You don't need to shot and kill a knife holder. Just pick up a long 2 x 4 and hit them. Works every time.
They, like so many may think it isn't killing someone, its like in the movies.
I think you misunderstand Jesse Ventura's definition of the second amendment. I agree that the police are equipped with a telescoping baton that can deal with a knife very effectively. You are right in that they don't do that because they are simply afraid.
DeleteYou would think they would be, but in fact police officers are usually out shot by civilians in various IPSC/IDPA competitions. Ths for the simple reason that most cops are not also firearms enthusiasts, and giving the demonization of guns in the popular culture in Canada over the last 40 years, many recruits have never fired a weapon before they get to the academy. After they graduate they may only be required to qualify once or twice a year.
DeleteIMHO telescoping batons aren't all that, and I say that as someone who was once upon a time a certified ASP instructor and I've carried one quite a bit. It's good for plainclothes but otherwise I would rather have a 24" aluminum straight baton. I feel you can get more done with it. ;-) For a lot of guys it's a PITA taking it out/putting it in the belt ring every time you get in/out of the car, but when it comes time to use it, you will forget all about that stuff.
DeleteIn the Mounties support, a knife is a whole different game. You do not even want to think about what an unskilled but determined opponent could do to you or anyone else in the area, and how little time it takes to do it. If they are just standing in the open unresponsive to command that is one thing, you may have options, (12ga beanbag, Taser etc., but at close quarters/indoors, with lots of stuff around you to impede your ability to retreat off the line of attack, different story, and inside 6-8 feet a man with a knife who knows what he's doing is not at a disadvantage against a man with a gun. If the gun is still in the holster that distance increases, modern security holsters and the fact that few cops practice their draw stroke regularly means that most are in big trouble if they don't know that an edged weapon attack is coming.
So yeah, you got a knife and don't drop it on command, you're probably getting shot. You want to take the chance you can get 'er done with a baton or a 2x4, "bon chance", it's your aorta the perp is trying to sever....
Telescoping batons are awesome. Stronger than aluminum. 24 inches is standard. England use truncheons which are the same thing. A baton against a knife is fine. We would disarm crack heads with knives unarmed in New York. I had a friend who was US Military Police. Responded to a domestic dispute call. His superior went in to arrest the guy when the suspect pulled a Samaria sword on him. My fried pulled his gun but couldn't get a shot because the suspect was on the other side of his superior. His superior pulled out a telescoping baton and disarmed the guy with the sword instantly.
Deletehttps://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10155899029770492
ReplyDeleteThe video claims the suspect had a knife. Tragic.
DeleteAnd now the news says that the man shot and killed was not even the man the police were responding to the complaint about. :(
DeleteSome random transient with a knife?
DeleteI dont know. Maybe some of u guys r way tougher than most. But ive been through a lot. U gonna have to hit me about two hundred times with a little dinky baton to even slow me down if im mad enough. Im a nice guy too. But I have my moments. As I have said. Ive been through a bit. Some ppl just dont go down that easy.
ReplyDeleteIt takes 15 lbs pressure to break a knee cap when fully extended. Crack the knee, crack the head, they're out. It's perfect for a knife because it's easy to knock the knife out of the hand and keep a safe distance. When disarming a knife attack unarmed it's always dangerous in that there is a really possibility you might get stabbed. I guess it's the Bobbies in England that are more properly trained with a truncheon.
DeleteThere was a guy in East Van stabbing people. The cops shot him with a bean bag gun which caused him to drop the knife. He then picked the knife up and stabbed someone right in front of the cops. At that point they shot him dead. In that case it was justified. Yet I would really rather see a little more police training with the batons instead of just shooting people dead when they aren't making any violent advancements with the knife. Yes police can use excessive force with the batons against unarmed suspects. It's a matter of using your brain and be properly trained.
You are however quite right in that it certainly isn't automatic. Robert Thomas took a full swing with a baseball bat at Dain Philips's leg and Dain didn't budge. I doubt he hit his knee. Thomas had to hit Dain several times in the leg and head before he brought Dain to the ground.
DeleteA steel baton is more dense and the force is more pinpointed then with a baseball bat. It's like breaking a board with the front two knuckles instead of the entire fist. The focused hit has much more penetration. It's like anything in the martial arts. Some moves just don't work on some people in which case you have to switch it up and try something else.
The cops need better training for de-escalation, especially in regards to the mentally ill. Use your words, most of the time you can resolve the situation. Also, what happened to the tazer? Had to use the gun because they didn't have a tazer or something?
ReplyDeleteYou are quite right that de-escalation skills need to be improved especially when dealing with the mentally ill. No doubt we can submit dozen of recent examples that have been in the news lately. The taser fatality at the airport is a prime example. That whole tragedy could have been avoided if they took the time to find an interpreter.
DeleteYou are correct a taser would have been a much better choice then a gun here. I hate the type of tasers that fire an electrode into the suspect that lets the cop turn up the steady voltage like shock therapy. We have seen that misused many times against unarmed suspects. The police argue that type of taser is safer against a knife. I agree and concede that would have been a better choice in this case then a gun. However, every situation is different. If the person was stabbing people or charging people with a knife then a gun is reasonable force.
While results MAY be obtained with a baton against a knife wielder, they may also not be. The fact that it happens isn't the be all/end all, the penalties if it doesn't work out are pretty severe.
ReplyDeleteMost people don't know how to use a knife. "Most People". One does not get the luxury of determining the character of one's opponent. If the person has been trained in how to guard his weapon you will not easily get a strike to the hand/wrist/arm. Likewise if the perp is not pain compliant for whatever reason, most strikes may be of little value, and while you are busy doing things that aren't working, he's busy stabbing you, or someone else. You won't mind at the time, you may even think he's punching you with little effect. You will change your mind about this very quickly. Trust me.
The police are trained not to strike the head or neck area with a baton. This is because people tend to die or have serious permanent injury from this. The problem is, baton strikes to gain compliance over an unarmed but resisting opponent are not the same as an opponent with a blade. In such a case, strikes to the head are perfectly acceptable (and advisable if you decided to take your chances with that as opposed to shooting them) because you are countering deadly force with deadly force. Pain compliance is no longer the goal, unconsciousness is.
The Taser used by LEO's doesn't have a 'variable' feature as you describe, the voltage is constant and the duration programmed for 5 seconds. If the probes are still in contact and it's needed, the operator can then press the trigger again, initiating another 5 second ride.
IIRC the death of Robert Dziekanski was cause by a combination of the taser, positional asphyxsia, and having 5 cops worth of body weight (close to a ton) compressing his chest, rather than just the Taser alone, although he was given multiple "rides" as I explain above. Full details of the incident only became public because Paul Pritchard, an eyewitness, filmed a video of it. The police initially took possession of the video, refusing to return it to Pritchard. Pritchard went to court to obtain it, then released it to the press. If not for one bystander who wouldn't let the cops get away with hiding their misdeeds, the truth may never have been known. The underlying (pun intended) issue with that case as with many others is a lack of character on the part of the officers involved, they not only tried to confiscate the video, they also lied about their actions. One of the officers involved was later to kill a motorcyclist while driving drunk, left the scene of the accident, and went home for a few drinks, later trying to say he had not been intoxicated at the time of the accident and only blew hot because he drank afterward. Pretty scumbag behavior right there, leaving a man to die to the pavement rather than rendering aid. The RCMP predictably tried to protect him, doing the right thing only when forced to.
I'm talking about your average Surrey crack head flailing the knife like a lunatic. Those are easy disarms. We did it all the time in New York. We were unarmed. You can tell how someone stands and holds the knife if they are trained. If they are trained in knife fighting it is as you say an entirely different matter.
DeleteYou're right the police here aren't supposed to use the baton on the side of the neck or temple due to the risk of fatalities. The Military Police example was on a US base. It's my preferred choice against a knife because it gives you a safe distance from the knife. It's a lot safe then doing it unarmed.
Agreed. I just don't think the average cop is good enough with a baton to be comfortable with this circumstance. What they learn in training they don't practice much thereafter, so they wind up defaulting to "the 21 foot rule". That and people on the job who are unsuitable to the profession winds up with people getting killed when it could have been avoided by having exceptional officers rather than average ones. Many of them could be exceptional but don't personally have that desire and they don't have leadership or belong to a policing culture that demands it. If force is a major tool in the toolbox of your profession, you should be really good at it. By way of example, you are not even getting in the door of the Tokyo PD unless you already have a shodan ranking in something useful.
ReplyDeletesome of the people holding knives are not in good physical condition. you can tell just by looking at them. Now it is true, some people in a "mental" state may not be able to feel much pain, but on the whole, police officers need more training on "fighting", de-escalation, negotiating, being physically fit.
ReplyDeleteUh oh, we are agreeing again..... ;-)
ReplyDeleteAnonymous on their website is saying they will out the cops ID. Harass the government to fire and charge him for murder. Expose his address etc. They vow to escalate the situation if nothing is done. These guys took down the nyse. They have some serious resources. That cops gonna wish he had just pepper sprayed this innocent native protester instead of killing him. Lotta whack jobs online. Anonymous has lots of followers and tons of computer skills. This cop can expect his identity to be stolen have his bank accts wiped out. Etc
ReplyDeleteGood for them. It is good that something gets done to this cop for what he has done, but hopefully proper action will be taken to avoid this unfortunate encounter. I would be concerned for my future if i were him. Do the right thing cop,plead guilty and resign immediately, maybe,just maybe, they leave you alone.
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